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Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR) - read this first
https://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=3682
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Author:  AnotherBrian [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

Would a library be appropriate? It would basically make this plug and play. I don't pretend to understand all the bits about this ALR, but I think your looking to pass variable back and forth from trading system to ALR?
Author:  Dewey McG [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

AnotherBrian » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:28 am wrote:Would a library be appropriate? It would basically make this plug and play. I don't pretend to understand all the bits about this ALR, but I think your looking to pass variable back and forth from trading system to ALR?
Sadly I do not know enough about coding to answer.
Author:  Dewey McG [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

I will ask Steve to send this out to the coders here asking for help.

http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... 231#p95231
Author:  kotsh [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

Hi Dewey,

thanks for your great work so far!!
Dewey McG wrote:2. The second way would be to plug the formulas directly into the EA, but we cannot use Klotsh’s formulas as is since it always starts with an initial value of .1. Depending on account size and risk, this number could fluctuate.
can you please check your inbox? I am not really sure till now what you mean with this part.

My opinion is that the EA should be standalone since it would be easier to use. Everyone can chose his own EA/strategy for trading on one chart, and the ALR on another chart to manage a chosen trade.

I am not sure if you saw it, but I had outlined my perspective of how to code the EA in terms of what the inputs would be and how it opeates.
http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... 2&start=70

I hope it would be useful in some way.

Cheers!
Author:  garyfritz [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

Dewey McG » Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:02 am wrote:Let's see if I can explain this. You would only be right if everything remained static, i.e. the market always gave you a the same probability of hitting your TP and that the odds of hitting TP on subsequent ALR trades remained at 25%.
That's right. That's what I simulated. I don't know how to simulate the actual market behavior, short of writing a system and backtesting it with actual market data on a reliable backtest platform. (And we all know the reputation of Empty4's backtester...)

Maybe I'll write a Tradestation system to test it. I would probably need to use a fairly random entry for the initial trade. I don't know how to get 60% on a 3:1 reward:risk trade. (If I could do that, I wouldn't worry about ALR!! That has an expectancy of 0.60*3-0.40*1 = 1.40, meaning on average you win 1.4x your risk on EVERY TRADE. Risk 2% and you'd win 2.8% per trade, on average. The Kelly value is 0.46 so you could very safely risk 5% per trade, averaging 1.4*5=7% profit per trade. Who needs ALR!?)

Maybe watch the pair and look for a period of decreased volatility, possibly followed by increasing volatility, and enter then. Volatility mean-reverts so if you've had a period of low volatility, it's very likely to increase. That's the perfect time to enter a trade that thrives on volatility. (Though I'm not convinced this one does! See below.)
If I use a 150 pip tp and 50 pip ALR then all I need is for the market to eventually move at least 150-200 pips either way within 10 turns and I MAKE A PROFIT.
Right. If you can avoid hitting the 10th turn and bailing, you're golden. Of course the same is true for a normal Martingale.

Here's a sample progression that increases the size on each turn, trades profitably up to 7 turns, and even with a 60% initial win rate, you still hit the 12th-turn bailout 2.3% of the time. That ALR works just fine if you don't hit the bailout, but once every 43 trades you WILL, if the market continues to hand you 25% wins for the 3:1 trade. 60% of the time you win 60, but every 43 trades you lose 720... and every 20 trades you lose about $100-$250. The net result is the same (before costs) as if you just took the loss in the first place.
ALR9.gif
If we use higher volatility pairs the odds of going 10 turns without a TP become far less than 3%.
I don't believe that. Higher volatility works both ways. Without some kind of trading edge (like the 60% on the first trade), you're more likely to hit the TP **AND** you're more likely to hit the SL.

On random entries (which is what you'll get if you just reverse when you hit the SL) your win rate will still be about 25% with 3:1 R:R, and the chances of hitting the final bail-out level are just about the same as at lower volatility. No free lunch.
Author:  Dewey McG [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

kotsh » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:43 am wrote:Hi Dewey,

thanks for your great work so far!!

can you please check your inbox? I am not really sure till now what you mean with this part.

My opinion is that the EA should be standalone since it would be easier to use. Everyone can chose his own EA/strategy for trading on one chart, and the ALR on another chart to manage a chosen trade.

I am not sure if you saw it, but I had outlined my perspective of how to code the EA in terms of what the inputs would be and how it opeates.
http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... 2&start=70

I hope it would be useful in some way.

Cheers!
My inbox shows 0 messages. I will send you a message with my e-mail address.

I added your post to the thread requesting help from a coder
Author:  Dewey McG [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

garyfritz » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:56 am wrote:

I don't believe that. Higher volatility works both ways. Without some kind of trading edge (like the 60% on the first trade), you're more likely to hit the TP **AND** you're more likely to hit the SL.
Until we get an EA to start testing we will have to agree to disagree on several points. The math involved might require a statistician of Nate Silver's skills, but I am sure there must be a way to calculate the odds of a pair with a volatility of X remaining within Y% of X over the next Z trades (or period of time). Without that we can only use a static measure that likely exaggerates the odds of hitting a stop loss.

However, please look again at my point about higher volatility pairs. if the pair is moving up and down more and by larger amounts than the chances of it going enough either way to hit TP are greater. if you are using 60 pips for your TP and 20 for your ALR zone, then we only need moves of between 60-80 pips in either direction to profit. If you use 150 pips and 50, wouldn't you rather use the GBPJPY than the EURCHF? I use a strategy that is very specific to the EURCHF precisely because it is less volatile that would likely kill me if I used it on gold etc.
Author:  garyfritz [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

Dewey McG » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:10 am wrote:However, please look again at my point about higher volatility pairs. if the pair is moving up and down more and by larger amounts than the chances of it going enough either way to hit TP are greater. if you are using 60 pips for your TP and 20 for your ALR zone, then we only need moves of between 60-80 pips in either direction to profit.
Yes. But you only need 20 pips to hit your SL, and that happens more often. As the volatility makes it easier to hit the 60 pip TP, it also makes it easier to hit the SL. With random entry and 3:1 R:R, you should hit the TP 25% of the time regardless of the pair's volatility.
Author:  Dewey McG [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

garyfritz » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:23 pm wrote: Yes. But you only need 20 pips to hit your SL, and that happens more often. As the volatility makes it easier to hit the 60 pip TP, it also makes it easier to hit the SL. With random entry and 3:1 R:R, you should hit the TP 25% of the time regardless of the pair's volatility.
You only need 20 pips to activate ALR, not hit stop loss. To hit SL the market would have to chop within the ALR zone 9 more times--or at least how many turns you designate--in order to actually hit the SL.

Find a chart where this has happened :P
Author:  garyfritz [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Automatic Loss Recovery System (ALR)

OK, terminology difference. I was using the term SL to mean the point where you reverse the position. Same thing, though. You need 60 pips to hit the TP and exit ALR, but 20 pips to activate the next ALR turn. Given the fairly random entry, that's going to be a 25% chance of hitting the TP, 75% of hitting the ALR reversal. 0.75^9 is 7.5% -- 7.5% chance of reversing 9 times and hitting the final stop-out.

I'm not going to go look for this in charts. I might get a chance to write a system to demonstrate it. I will bet, though, that it happens more often than you suspect.
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