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| Martingale debunked by Gary https://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=547 |
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| Author: | SteveHopwood [ Mon May 07, 2012 6:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Martingale debunked by Gary |
I am going to place copies of this in several forums to make sure its message is widely understood. At some stage, every trader will meet Martingale for the first time and become very excited about it. The idea is sooooooo seductive. At its simplest, M involves this:
And then consider this; the next trade is double the size that was too hideous for your nightmare. And then consider this unbreakable, unshakable, unavoidable law of Forex trading; if something can happen, and it is bad for you, then it will happen and probably sooner rather than later. If it happens later, then it was toying with you and you were ball-achingly lucky. Garyfritz has emerged as this forum's National Treasure. Stunningly clever, mathematically adept at levels I cannot even begin to dream about and possessing an ability to analyse that makes me gasp, I asked him to do some M debunking. Here is what he posted in one of our threads. As you read it, bear in mind Gary's conclusions which are these:
I haven't tried proving this but I think it may be possible for a M to *improve* a system's results. E.g. it may be possible to turn a slight loser into a slight winner -- but at the cost of dramatically increased risk and a terrifying equity curve. If you have infinite funds, so you NEVER EVER blow out of the M, then you could produce a closed-trade equity curve that looks like a straight line. But your open equity -- the actual day-to-day current value of your account -- is going to have frequent huge drawdowns. Since you have infinite funds, so you can survive any possible sequence of recovery trades, you don't care. You accept a tiny but guaranteed return on your infinite account. But for those of us with finite funds -- which I suspect is most of us!! -- you can't guarantee you will NEVER blow out of the M. So you have to take enormous risks for small gains, and that's a very dangerous way to trade. The exact progression of recovery levels -- 1.2.4.8.16, or 1.1.2.3.5.8.13, or whatever -- will change the results, but it will not change the M from "disaster waiting to happen" into "guaranteed money machine." It might reduce the chances of an inevitable blowup, but the blowup is still inevitable. The only question is whether you can survive the blowup, and whether the resulting profits (if any) after the blowup are worth the risk. I strongly suspect they aren't. Martingales are "perpetual motion machines" that claim to create something from nothing. Unless you're Rumplestiltskin and can spin gold from straw, that doesn't work in the real world. Steve is right -- you're better off to learn how to trade, instead of relying on hocus-pocus to do the work for you." Then his next post in the same thread: "I decided I needed some numbers to back up my intuition. I threw together a spreadsheet that does a crude simulation of a Martingale system. It simulates 1000 random trades, then trades it as you specify: win%, win size, loss size, M bailout point, M progression. It shows the results of trading those random trades without any Martingale, and trading them with your specified Martingale parameters. BTW I should point out that while I was working with this, simulating a system with 50% wins, I saw one case where I got TWENTY-ONE CONSECUTIVE LOSSES. That's a freakishly uncommon result, a chance of 1 in 2 million, but it's the kind if thing that CAN happen. That's the kind of event that can kill you, no matter how well-capitalized you think you are for Martingale blowups. So, what did I see in my simulations? With a random coin-flip system -- 50% wins, win size = loss size -- the Martingale is also a coin-flip. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts. No benefit that I can see. If the system result is random, the M results are random. This was true for all progressions I tried. With a winning system, it gets more interesting. With 50% wins, a 2:1 W/L ratio, and bailout at level 5, the Martingale consistently made about 2.0-2.5x more profit. HOWEVER you could get very similar results without a Martingale, just by increasing your fixed position size by about 2.5x. There are a zillion ways you could play the numbers, and I've attached the spreadsheet for your own experimentation. Let us know if you find a miracle Martingale. From my experiments, my conclusions are:
Therefore: I conclude that Martingale Mania is a will-o-the-wisp, a fantasy. Martingales hugely increase your risks without providing any benefit. Martingales won't help you unless your system is already a winner, and if your system is a winner, a Martingale is a bad way to increase its returns. Just Say No to Martingales." EDIT: Added the Martingale simulator spreadsheet -- Gary 6/20/12 EDIT: Major update, converted to fixed risk% instead of fixed position size -- Gary 7/2/13 |
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| Author: | rob2360 [ Mon May 07, 2012 7:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
Great topic. Martingaling to create profits on a losing strategy - is exactly like what alchemists in the 1600s spent a lot of time trying to doing with lead, namely turn base metal into gold. They failed and in the long run you will too. As you use "M" you gotta ask yourself - 'do you feel lucky, punk, well do ya?' The expected return on a Martingale version of a strategy is exactly that of the strategy - the key difference is do you want the losses spaced probabilistically in-line with the strategy (PL) or loss weighted power N, with a probability PL/N? all that means is you can have the losses as you go or play dodge-the-bullet and get the "big one" now and again. Overall expectancy should be equal. Having said that, the expectancy of any lottery is negative but that doesn't stop them lining up in droves to play... For extra credit, are "recovery trades"by their very nature, Martingale? |
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| Author: | garyfritz [ Mon May 07, 2012 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
Yes, I would say so. I haven't seen any recovery setup that DIDN'T look like a Martingale. |
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| Author: | SteveHopwood [ Mon May 07, 2012 8:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
On t'other hand Recovery is self-limiting - something a lot of people forget. Scoobs robot in its various versions has this wrong. Suppose Recovery is set to 4 levels i.e. 1.1.2.4, 1.2.3.6, 1.2.4.8 or whatever. If the market reaches what would be L5, then the original L1 trade is supposed to close, and L5 becomes the new L1 and matters proceed from there. The trader is supposed to try to manage the position back to an ultimate breakeven. What is not supposed to happen is, the market hits max_recovery_levels + 1 price and the entire position closes - the 'bail out' option. Mind, Gary might be able to debunk this as well. |
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| Author: | garyfritz [ Mon May 07, 2012 8:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
Not unless/until I understand it. So if you're trading 1.1.2.4 and you have L1/L2/L3/L4 open and hit the next level... what do you mean by "L5 becomes the new L1" ? Close the 1.1.2.4 positions (a normal bailout exit) and start a new recovery with the "L5 = new L1" trade at a size of 1? That's the trouble with Martingales. The market has a way of exceeding max_recovery_levels far more often than you'd ever dream. Kind of like those "100 year floods" that happen every 5-10 years... |
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| Author: | rob2360 [ Mon May 07, 2012 9:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
Nothing here to report. Move along now.. |
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| Author: | SteveHopwood [ Mon May 07, 2012 9:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
No. Trade 1 is the initial trade - L1. RecoveryLevels represents the max number of levels, i.e. 3 on a 1.2.6 system, 4 in a 1.1.2.4 systerm. 5 om a 1.2.3.6.9 system etc So, we have open an L1 trade - the initial trade. Subsequent Recovery trades go through to, say, L4. Taking, say, 1.1.2.4 as our Recovery structure and starting at 1 lot, we have open:
At the time I coded The Beast and all its variants, I could not see how to code the rolling stuff, but I probably could now. Easy, it aint - and that is when you actually grasp the concept in the first place, which most people fail to do. The variants of Scoobs FR miss the point here - they simply bail out at a predetermined level rather than managing the position as I describe. Sing out if this is still not clear; it is not easy to explain. |
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| Author: | hiredwhip [ Mon May 07, 2012 9:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
Steve and I both gave this young man a vouch for this.....Have a read |
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| Author: | garyfritz [ Mon May 07, 2012 9:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
I see. At first glance I don't see how this could be much/any better than a basic L1/L2/L3/L4/bail Martingale. You never have a "full" bail-out loss, but you get roughly the same effect one loss at a time. In fact it seems like it would be worse, since e.g. a standard Martingale only has one "band" worth of loss on the large L4 position, whereas this approach would let the market move 4 "bands" against it before you closed out the L4 position -- for a much larger loss. Seems to me that it would be a "death by a thousand cuts" instead of "off with his head." Maybe less gruesome, but equally fatal. In my copious free time I'll see if I can modify my simulation to support that kind of "recycling" Martingale. I'm not sure the crude model I used will support it, but I'll look. |
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| Author: | SteveHopwood [ Mon May 07, 2012 9:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Martingale debunked by Gary |
I am not in the best position to argue for it either, as I have never properly managed Recovery to its conclusion - this is why my account is hedged to buggery and should come out when I finally manage to learn to trade properly. About 2020. Bob could probably make a better case, but he is a tad busy right now. |
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