The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post your EA evaluations here.
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SteveHopwood
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The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by SteveHopwood »

viracocca has suggested this in a pm.

He made the point that a member doing a deep analysis of a particular EA will not have the time or resources to do equally deep analyses of others. He pointed out that such a deep analysis will be of immense value to others coming across the EA for the first time.

viracocca suggested starting an 'EA results' thread. After thinking about it, I realised that a dedicated forum would be valuable.

So, when you have thoroughly evaluated an EA and are ready to post your findings:
  • 1) Start a thread here ('Post a new topic'), with the name of the EA in the title.
    2) Describe the EA and those functions that you have evaluated.
    3) Set out your results.
    4) Where the EA has been successful, add your set files.
viracocca suggests:
  • 1) A minimum of 1 month of forward testing on demo or a tiny, live-money testing account before posting results.
    2) No Empty4 backtesting results. I am going to insist on this and will delete posts that contain them. Backtests from more accurate platforms are welcome. I originally wrote, "No backtesting results" but have modified this in light of a pm from Gary. You can read this in post 1.
Over time, this could build into a valuable resource.

Feel free to a dd your own suggestions for this forum's organisation.

:D
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SteveHopwood
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by SteveHopwood »

Here is the pm from Gary that I cited in post 1:
garyfritz wrote:
SteveHopwood wrote:viracocca suggests:
  • 1) A minimum of 1 month of forward testing on demo or a tiny, live-money testing account before posting results.
    2) No backtesting results. I am going to insists on this and will delete posts that contain them.
Is that "no Empty4 backtests" or "no backests at all" ?

I agree that Empty4 backtests are largely useless, except maybe if done by an expert on known-good data. Maybe.

But Empty4 isn't the only backtest platform.

I think a GOOD backtest is invaluable. Naturally you can't guarantee the future will act like the past, but an accurate backtest does give you a very good idea how the system performed over time. A 1 month live test tells you how it performed in a tiny one-month window with one particular set of parameters. You have no idea how it would perform over a longer period or how critical/sensitive the parameters are. You don't know if your test was typical behavior for that EA or a complete fluke. Scoobs' FR is a perfect example of this -- you could live-trade tiny positions for a month and it prints money like an ATM. So you amp up the position size and WHAM! There's an L3 loss. "But it never did that in the forward test!!"

In my opinion, a 1 month forward test is less useful than even an Empty4 backtest -- except for debugging the live-trading code.

If I see an EA that interests me enough, I'll code up an approximation in Tradestation. That's the only way *I* can tell if it's any good. I would never put real money into something that I hadn't stress-tested over a good long history. Other people are comfortable with a 1 month (or less) forward test but that's much too weak a test for my comfort. I base this opinion on 14 years of experience building and backtesting systems in Tradestation, and making some pretty serious money with those systems. (Back in the day, anyway. It's a lot harder these days. :()

I believe these tests are one of the most valuable things I bring to the forum, but you may not agree. I will continue to do them for my own use but I won't post the results if you don't want them. I'll let you decide if "no backtests" extends beyond the worthless Empty4 backtester.

Gary
We all know that Gary is one of the brightest people here, so I am not going to argue. Tradestation backtests are now officially welcome. :lol:

:D
Read the effing manual, ok?

Afterprime is the official SHF broker. Read about them at https://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=175790#p175790.

I still suffer from OCCD. Good thing, really.

Anyone here feeling generous? My paypal account is always in the market for a tiny donation. pianodoodler@hotmail.com is the account.

To see The Weekly Roundup of stuff you guys might have missed Click here

My special thanks to Thomas (tomele) for all the incredible work he does here.
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SteveHopwood
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by SteveHopwood »

Gary, I have been thinking about what you wrote in the pm.

Ok, so 1 moth of forward testing does not 'stress test' an ea sufficiently. I can see that.

I accept that, for example, Tradestation gives a more accurate idea of how an EA would have performed over a long period of time that threw up a wide variety of market conditions.

It seems to me that this is not much use unless we know what x market conditions were that led to the EA being profitable between A-date and B-date, but unprofitable between C-date and D-date.

When a member sends me a system to code that has been profitable in the last 6 months, we have no way of knowing if it will be profitable for the next 6 days/weeks/months/years. I do not see how backtesting, however accurate, is going to help with this. It might even be the case that an 'accurate' backtest might stop people using an EA that would otherwise have been profitable for a few days/weeks/months/years.

So, is not a month of forward testing that says that the EA has worked recently more useful than a backtest that says that it worked sometimes, but not others, but did not say why it worked/did not work?

Over to you, Gary.

:D
Read the effing manual, ok?

Afterprime is the official SHF broker. Read about them at https://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=175790#p175790.

I still suffer from OCCD. Good thing, really.

Anyone here feeling generous? My paypal account is always in the market for a tiny donation. pianodoodler@hotmail.com is the account.

To see The Weekly Roundup of stuff you guys might have missed Click here

My special thanks to Thomas (tomele) for all the incredible work he does here.
garyfritz

Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by garyfritz »

The key to developing successful EAs/robots/systems is to find some behavior that works reasonably well most of the time, for a long time. I'll take that over one that does spectacularly well for a little while and then fails spectacularly -- since without exception, it always fails spectacularly RIGHT after I start trading it.

If you find something that has a genuine edge, you hope that edge will continue to work. Things can shift and change that -- all my very successful systems quit working after the 9/11 attacks in New York, for example -- but in general you hope to find something that works in most market conditions.
It seems to me that this is not much use unless we know what x market conditions were that led to the EA being profitable between A-date and B-date, but unprofitable between C-date and D-date.
Yes, it would be very valuable to know what those conditions were. And how would you be able to figure that out if you're just forward testing? You might not hit A-B *or* C-D conditions during that time.

If someone brings you a system that has been successful for 6 months, how can you be certain that A-B period is typical? How can you be sure you've accurately implemented it (and that they've accurately described it, i.e. they weren't "cheating" and breaking their rules all the time) without seeing how your EA performed in those last 6 months? You can watch it for a month and see if it does what it's supposed to do, but what if that month never presents the conditions you need to test it? And wouldn't you rather be able to verify it NOW, instead of waiting a month or two? (Obviously Tradestation backtesting doesn't help you there unless you shifted over to using TS. But you get the idea. And a good TS backtest would tell you if it's worth writing/testing at all.)

I much prefer building a system and seeing if it works right away, so I can improve it or discard it and move on, rather than "implement 47 EAs in a row, debug them all in parallel, wait for months to see any of them worked," etc. (Not naming any names of course. :D)
So, is not a month of forward testing that says that the EA has worked recently more useful than a backtest that says that it worked sometimes, but not others, but did not say why it worked/did not work?
The month says "it worked for a month." You don't know if that's the only month it ever worked, or if it's been working like that consistently for years. Which would you rather trade? Wouldn't you like to KNOW which one you're trading? I wouldn't touch a system that only worked for the last month or two and lost before that.

True, the backtest doesn't tell why it worked or didn't work. That's your job as system developer, to try to see what was different in those times, try different changes to your system to help it work better all the time or step aside when it doesn't work, etc. Which of course you can only develop if you can backtest your changes. (Of course you do have to be careful not to overfit your system to the historical data.)

Backtest Scoobs' FR for example, and you'll quickly see it blows up when the market trends strongly against it. Sure we know that now, but say you just got the idea for FR and implemented it. Your backtests would tell you it works fabulously, except in trending markets. So you can try adding trend filters, then see if they worked. If you're forward testing, you'd have to wait for a strong trending market. You might hit a few small trends and conclude your changes were successful. Then Spain implodes, Europe slips into a morass like the US did in 2008, and your "fixed" robot blows up in your face. Maybe you could have avoided that -- or at least known what to expect and adjusted your risk accordingly -- if you'd backtested back through 2008. That's what I do, because I want to know how my system is likely to behave if (when) the world goes into another financial meltdown.

I think understanding the risk is one of the most important values of backtesting, especially with all the recovery systems around here. People run them for a few weeks and start getting dollar/pound/euro signs in their eyes, so they think "This thing hardly has any drawdowns at all! I'll size it up and really start making some money!" But they have no idea what risk they're taking on because they have no idea how the EA performs in the long run. Even though Empty4 backtests are crap, they can (if properly done) at least give you an idea of the risks when your recovery system hits a panic-exit trade -- and how often that happens. That's pretty valuable in itself.
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viracoccha
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by viracoccha »

maybe I can explain why this topic is worth to development .... I know that my English is crap ... sorry about that .... previous post here had point .... there is nothing wrong .... Gary had right and Steve had right .... there is so many different thoughts as there are people ..... I start watch EA more closely if there are some promising test results .... but I dont believe test at all ..... I try systems even there are bad results, because I know logic of system and I know that this should work.
One month is tiny period ... true ... but the point is that during one month, watching every day only one certain EA gives you opportunity to learn his BEHAVIOR better way. during one month there may be fragments of all types of movements .... and its shows something about that EA and risks of that EA. And "The Watcher" can give nice overview and suggestions to trade with that EA.
Secondly ... It helps to others follow the "whole picture" better way .... some EAs there are hundred thousands possibility to set EA parameters ... how to find right ones? I think that it helps if you know "soul" of that EA and his behavior.

I dont argue here .... I cant even do that, because I have not so much experience in forex market as you have ... but some place where we can find some results definitely helps to find new ideas and thoughts.
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cuzgeorge
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by cuzgeorge »

Hi guys, i'm with Gary on this one,
i'm also trying to edit some of the EA's with Squalou's code to allow for nice looking backtests.

The only thing i would like to be able to do at any time is be able to intervene and stop all action, or at least make sure that MPTM is set up properly in the event of a major blow to the markets.
I find myself staring at monitors often, especially now as i have my own dosch in the accounts of the crim's so backtest results will always linger in the back of my mind.

The backtests would be the main reason, that i would look at an EA further. THEN comes the forward testing to get me live on a EA in the first place, and anything contrary to those results and i will definately stop trading the EA's.
i think EA's go hand in hand with backtesting are are a fundamental part of the development, it's just the QUALITY of them that gets me bothered and spitting at the coals. Thats why you'll see i'm testing the hell out of just about anything i can get my hands on that showed a decent backtest. It starts there for me, and i hope i'm not pissing anyone off with my whiskey talk.
regards and have a great evening to all,
cuzgeorge
10.X, BMac,Xmeter,Marylin,and CaptsNakedTrading thread coupled with Slowkeys Intraday setup for manual trades.
http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... f=36&t=848
jb68
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by jb68 »

Hi,

I wonder if we can compile a list of crims with non-expiring Demo accounts and Steve can post this list in his first post or on a separate sticky post. I know Oanda is one but maybe some of you can come with other crims with non expiring Demo accounts.
Lot of latest EA with averaging / recovery (gertje , fx robots etc) need way more then 1 month forward testing.
Also if you trade live with one crim you can ask to make one testing account non expiring.
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cuzgeorge
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by cuzgeorge »

jb68 wrote:Hi,

I wonder if we can compile a list of crims with non-expiring or at least more then a month an Steve can put in his first post or on a separate sticky post. I know oanda is one but maybe some of you can come with other crims with non expiring accounts.
Lot of latest EA with averaging / recovery (gertje , fx robots etc) need way more then 1 month forward testing.
Also if you trade live with one crim you can ask to make one testing account non expiring.
Hi JB,
The crims dont mind you trying demos, and if you ask your account manager, just email them, they'll give you directions how to set up one with-in Empty4. i dont know how to do that or i'd post it here, but the only negative this way is you cant use myfxbook with that version. If they set one up for you that doesnt expire, i think they do it for about a year, and you must remind them to re-initialise the demo each year. thats what i'm told by them.
You're right about the expiring problem. i had a few expire on me and i couldnt access the results to determine the EA's activity. they have to be used with in a week or they automatically expire also.

they are also able to pdf you a copy of the results, but some are too lazy to do this, and this also proves that they are able to see exactly what you see, so remember the 'stealth' settings that steve uses. If they want to monitor you, they sure can. ;)
ps: i use 2 live crooks, and i have 5 year long demo's on each. they dont seem to mind at all.
hope this info helps,
cuz
10.X, BMac,Xmeter,Marylin,and CaptsNakedTrading thread coupled with Slowkeys Intraday setup for manual trades.
http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... f=36&t=848
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by SteveHopwood »

jb68 wrote:Hi,

I wonder if we can compile a list of crims with non-expiring Demo accounts and Steve can post this list in his first post or on a separate sticky post. I know Oanda is one but maybe some of you can come with other crims with non expiring Demo accounts.
Lot of latest EA with averaging / recovery (gertje , fx robots etc) need way more then 1 month forward testing.
Also if you trade live with one crim you can ask to make one testing account non expiring.
Cowboy IBFX leave demos open so long as there is activity. They will delete them after a month of non-activity.

:D
Read the effing manual, ok?

Afterprime is the official SHF broker. Read about them at https://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=175790#p175790.

I still suffer from OCCD. Good thing, really.

Anyone here feeling generous? My paypal account is always in the market for a tiny donation. pianodoodler@hotmail.com is the account.

To see The Weekly Roundup of stuff you guys might have missed Click here

My special thanks to Thomas (tomele) for all the incredible work he does here.
greentea
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Re: The purpose of this forum. Please read this sticky.

Post by greentea »

i have 2 demos with atcbrokers.com for over a year now. it seems that they do not expire. the only thing is you can download Empty4, but cannot create the account yourself. you need to click on the link, ask for a demo, and they will send you the login and pw. they have not expired even if i dont use them for months.
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