Why Empty4?

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Carsten
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:48 pm

Why Empty4?

Post by Carsten »

For those who have only read the title and want wo reply with "because it's the most brokers' default option": Please don't.

In this thread, I do not want to address Problems with Empty4.
Also, I do not want to start discussions if Empty4 is a useful software or not. It can display charts, enter trades, gives people the possibility to program their own custom trading strategies. It seems to serve its purpose.

What I want to start with this thread is a discussion beyond the seemlingly overwhelming world of Empty4. Beyond the countless workarounds. Beyond the home-made bugfixes. Beyond the idea that it is the user's responsibility to fix a broken platform.
(Well, big words...maybe a little too big. But I hope I have caught your attention. ;) )

There seem to be a lot of problems with Empty4. One little problem at a time is not a dealbreaker. But I am under the strong opinion that a computer programme that is responsible for handlung one's money should be reliable. Really reliable. From what I have seen in many threads, this does not seem to be the case.
Another point that strikes me is that it seems to be impossible to get reliable Test results from Empty4.
Either that, or a lot of people are obsessed with running computer programmes for prolonged periods of time. All other trading programs (NinjaTrader, for example), generate reliable backtests. I cannot see why this is such an exception in the forex world.
(Well, of course there are some exceptions. High-frequency trading algorithms probably rely on precise tick-wise input. But most trading systems operate on a scale of minutes or hours.)

What I am saying is that -- if nobody really likes Empty4 -- there should be another way.
Possible solutions for this problem which I see are:
  • We could use another trading programme instead of Empty4. We would need a driver or some other kind of interface between the trading programme and the broker's Empty4 feed.
  • A lot of brokers offer the FIX protocol for trading. It is an open, well-defined protocol. With a bit of effort and the combined programming knowledge of this forum, I am sure that program can be developed which can run custom strategies.
The second solution would of course only be useful for running a custom strategy.
One could also try and look for a company which provides historical forex data. If such a company can be found, it should be no problem to make a backtesting programme from the custom trading programme mentioned above.
garyfritz

Re: Why Empty4?

Post by garyfritz »

Everyone seems to agree that Empty4 is developed for the convenience of the crims, and that it is designed to maximize their profits, not ours. That alone is enough to give one pause. The reliability and accuracy problems just add to the concerns.

Empty4 is available on many crims. However from what I hear here and elsewhere, you should not trust many of those crims with your money. So the wide availability is not as big an advantage as you might think.

There are other options:
* Tradestation has great charting, a very capable programming language, and a backtester you can trust, but it's limited to TS for clearing. (However it's possible to invoke Ninja from inside TS and route your orders wherever you want.)
* MultiCharts is a TS look-alike that addresses some of TS's limitations.
* NinjaTrader has a lot of capability. I believe it also has a reliable backtester. I haven't looked at it for a few years and there were things that drove me crazy about it, but I think they've improved it since then. A lot of people like NT. It works with many brokers.
* Wealth-Lab has some very good features, including good support for full portfolio testing. In the US it's limited to use with Fidelity, but outside the US it's more available. Not sure of its auto-execution abilities.
* AmiBroker has a lot of fans but I don't know much about it.
* There are probably others.

There are also API options. Most of these are good only for execution, not development or backtesting, and many of them are broker-specific.
* The FIX protocol has many vendors and supporters. I don't know how much a decent FIX engine costs or how difficult it is to work with.
* MB Trading has a simple but very capable API, IB has a less-simple API, probably lots of others do too.

Empty4 is "easy" because it's familiar. There are lots of communities of Empty4 users (like this one, but not as good :D) where you can share great ideas and coding efforts. But I think it's costing us a lot. Empty4 is a fun toy for somebody "playing" with FX. But if we're serious about this, I think we need to consider using some professional-strength tools.
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Alpenkorps
Trader
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:03 am

Re: Why Empty4?

Post by Alpenkorps »

Why Empty4? Come on man! We both know why ... Its like asking, why Windows?

Empty4 is crap, I know it, you know it, everyone at this forum knows it. But what about the majority of general traders? I bet 95% of 'em would never noticed the problems with Empty4. Unless you are a coder, backtester, Automator, or into StatArb, Empty4 can be very friendly and easy going.

There is no doubt that Empty4 is designed to benefit Crims. But to be honest, I don't think any other platform will be this popular real soon. If you are having problem with it, you can go for another platform that suits you, but it doesn't matter if a minor group doesn't like it, Crims will keep supporting Empty4 and majority of traders will use it.

Personally I am trying to shift to Trade Station. Also trying Ninja Trader but doesn't look so friendly to me. I have had enough with Empty4. While backtesting the Round Number EA, I have realized that this amazing Crappy software can incredibly produce 5 different result with same data and settings!! This is the main reason, I have postponed further testing with it.

How about MT5? I am yet to try it, but I've heard its more reliable than Empty4, fixed a few bugs and has more features?
Take my love, take my land, Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care, I'm still free, You can't take the sky from me
Raiden
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:50 am

Re: Why Empty4?

Post by Raiden »

Alpenkorps wrote:Why Empty4? Come on man! We both know why ... Its like asking, why Windows?

Personally I am trying to shift to Trade Station. Also trying Ninja Trader but doesn't look so friendly to me. I have had enough with Empty4. While backtesting the Round Number EA, I have realized that this amazing Crappy software can incredibly produce 5 different result with same data and settings!! This is the main reason, I have postponed further testing with it.

How about MT5? I am yet to try it, but I've heard its more reliable than Empty4, fixed a few bugs and has more features?
You have to fix the spread in the symbols.sel file by testing offline.

Talking to other programmers already using it, MT5 apparently is a powerhouse. Would probably start the transition within the year.
Jagg

Re: Why Empty4?

Post by Jagg »

What is the actual "stand" with MT5!? Is MT5 not ready yet (no crim uses it!?)!?

Today there was a new post about MT5 here: http://www.mql5.com/en/articles/384

So will the EA's, indicators from Empty4 will work on MT5?
Will all crim switch to MT5 and quitting Empty4!?

Is there anything we knew already about that?

Thanks
Forex37
Trader
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 6:03 pm

Re: Why Empty4?

Post by Forex37 »

It`s the community that makes the difference. So its Empty4, because thats where everybody gives you free advice, code, systems, feedback... and thats why it is not MT5 at all.
Its the free platform and the free datafeed - but that only lured many to give it a try. That these people stayed and share ist the real value of Empty4.
It`s`people like Steve, NB, Sqal... and many many more who make the difference between any platform and Empty4.
I would be happy to follow NB, SH and all the others if they would migrate to a better platform!

Kind regards to all of you
SWG123
Trader
Posts: 565
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:02 pm
Location: Cape Town

Re: Why Empty4?

Post by SWG123 »

Forex37 wrote:It`s the community that makes the difference. So its Empty4, because thats where everybody gives you free advice, code, systems, feedback... and thats why it is not MT5 at all.
Its the free platform and the free datafeed - but that only lured many to give it a try. That these people stayed and share ist the real value of Empty4.
It`s`people like Steve, NB, Sqal... and many many more who make the difference between any platform and Empty4.
I would be happy to follow NB, SH and all the others if they would migrate to a better platform!

Kind regards to all of you
Exactly, well said, couldn't agree more. ;)
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