10.2 forum

[Zool]

I've just checked the weekly pivots on EURUSD. The difference on using sunday close vs. friday close is 60 pips. Maybe that's not too much for some of youz, but there's an other thing. If the order of pivot lines used to determine the market's direction, this 60 pips difference on weekly pivot could lead to absolutely opposite results. On Cowboy IBFX with Bob's pivots there is a clear downtrend, the daily is below both weekly and monthly pivots. Using other pivots the dailéy is between monthly and weekly.
Now look back at the begining of May. There was only about 30 pips difference between the 3 pivots. In a situaion like that a 60 pips difference in the weekly pivot is huge.

[nanningbob]

More on pivots: I've checked the pivots on USDCHF. While using Bob's pivot indicators the order are this (low to high): monthly - weekly - daily (showing clear uptrend)
Using other pivot indicators the order: monthly - daily - weekly (ranging?)

All of this I will write about is made on Cowboy IBFX (where the server time zone is gmt+3 Bob's pivot indicators show the same value as other ones). So I've checked the weekly pivot value. Manually calculating it based on the weekly candle it should be correct. The weekly candle on USDCHF shows the following values:
H: 0.96949
L: 0.94791
C: 0.94975

Calculating the pivot values with (H+L+C)/3 formula gives 0.95572. This is the value Bob's weekly pivot indicator shows. The glitch is that on Cowboy IBFX the weekly candle's closing value is not the friday close value, but the sunday close value. I don't know why
When Cowboy IBFX starts a new week with it's GMT time zone there is already 09:00 in Sydney, the market started 2 hours ago, how could be the end of sunday used as a weekly close value? It was not really apparent till now, because there was no/small gaps in the weekend.

When not using the sunday candle to determine the weekly pivot the values are:
H: 0.96949
L: 0.95126
C: 0.96062
Look at the big difference in the low and close values. The pivot based on these numbers is 0.95046 and this is the same as other indicators and online pivot calculator sites showing. I think this is the correct value, because a trading week starts at Sydney open and ends with NY close, if using Cowboy IBFX's weekly candles that's not the case. The weekly pivot would be off for the entire week, and if there's a weekend gap again, then the next week will be wrong too. Maybe the difference is not that big in the majority of times, but this week they are noticeable.

There are daily and weekly pivot indicators made by Cowboy IBFX and those are showing the correct values. If someone, who can code may look into those indicators source, then maybe the fix can be made to Bob's indicators ( if needed).

Now you know why I called it a test version I guess the question really becomes on how we handle weekend gaps. Do we include them or not include them?? That seems to become the real issue. Without the gaps the differences are small. With the gaps they can be quite different.

[spotdespot]

Now you know why I called it a test version I guess the question really becomes on how we handle weekend gaps. Do we include them or not include them?? That seems to become the real issue. Without the gaps the differences are small. With the gaps they can be quite different.

I think any fix that took in to account the Friday close value (rather than Sunday close) as Zool suggests would solve any debate wouldn't it? I don't care about 10-20 pips too much but 60 pips makes a significant difference imo. I know this latest gap was a little extreme but as pivots are somewhat self-fulfilling in terms of use as S/R it would seem sensible to be using pretty much the same pivots as everyone else - as long as the "fix" isn't too onerous.

[nanningbob]

Now you know why I called it a test version I guess the question really becomes on how we handle weekend gaps. Do we include them or not include them?? That seems to become the real issue. Without the gaps the differences are small. With the gaps they can be quite different.

I think any fix that took in to account the Friday close value (rather than Sunday close) as Zool suggests would solve any debate wouldn't it? I don't care about 10-20 pips too much but 60 pips makes a significant difference imo. I know this latest gap was a little extreme but as pivots are somewhat self-fulfilling in terms of use as S/R it would seem sensible to be using pretty much the same pivots as everyone else - as long as the "fix" isn't too onerous.

Actually none of this discussion is new. We had the same issues with the weekly open histograms all for the very same reasons. Different start times for brokers, some have a Sunday candle some dont, do you include the pre gap or post gap open, etc etc. I came to the conclusion that I cant design my system to fit all these variations. Each trader would have to do their own work around. What ever solution I propose would just cause a different problem for someone else. So, I decided I had to use what worked for me, the broker I used, and the markets and time zones I traded. NZ and AU people have different schedules than those from other parts of Asia, who are different from those from Europe and Africa, then the Western hemisphere people. Each trader is simply going to have to adapt. And in reality this would be true for all indicators not just the ones in this system.

[spotdespot]

Actually none of this discussion is new. We had the same issues with the weekly open histograms all for the very same reasons. Different start times for criminals, some have a Sunday candle some dont, do you include the pre gap or post gap open, etc etc. I came to the conclusion that I cant design my system to fit all these variations. Each trader would have to do their own work around. What ever solution I propose would just cause a different problem for someone else. So, I decided I had to use what worked for me, the criminal I used, and the markets and time zones I traded. NZ and AU people have different schedules than those from other parts of Asia, who are different from those from Europe and Africa, then the Western hemisphere people. Each trader is simply going to have to adapt. And in reality this would be true for all indicators not just the ones in this system.

Hi Bob - garyfritz actually came up with a solution to the weekly open histogram issue - which works with any timeframe broker (GMT or otherwise) - http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... 5&start=31

Funnily enough in this case the pivots work fine with non-GMT brokers! Anyway - who am I to question anything I had a look at the code and it is beyond me so I will not mention it again after this post. I am certainly not intending to criticize anything - 10.2 is fantastic to use - thanks again.

This is the difference this week:

GMT broker:

gmt eu.gif

GMT+1 broker (pivots match published ones):

gmt+1 eu.gif

[forexripper]

All traders,

I did a visual back testing of 10.2 method esp for June 1st week. Can someone create EA with these rules please:

1) Look at D1 slope - If > 0.4 buy only for the pair and > -0.4 sell on for the pair
2) On H4 candle closes above / below WP or S/R level we enter - But over 50% of the candle body should cross the pivot or S/R level
3) If there is no WP cross then look for any of the following:
a) S/R rejection / support - the candle touches S/R line and closes below it and candle is Red and not Blue (close < open)
b) SRF - if sell is the trigger for the pair then candle passes over 50% of the previous candle and both are above WP but below R1 same for buy trigger i.e. below WP but above S1.
c) Break of the open for the week - so you will see orange or blue on WOH 1x1 indi - say it opened with blue on indi and then after 2 bars it turned orange. We will enter short on close of that candle (it will also be crossing on the MA lines on Bob's earlier template).

TP: volatility pairs 1-3 next WP or S/R levels and WP for SRF trades
and for volatility pairs 4-5 S2/R2 level or WP for SRF
SL: high or low of the entry bar + 20 pips but if candle shows the break was false i.e. closes back above / below WP or S/R levels then close trade.

Please share your views please. So if I had done trading using the above rules (most of us got stuck into how to trade last week) I would have got 890 pips Wow!!!
Most of those were AUD and NZD based as those were the currencies strengthening.

[monkeh]

I tried eyeballing your chart with mine. Except that mine updated for the Monday gap the rest seem about the same. In other words your Tues.....

thank you Bob for such a detailed answer!

may pips follow you!

[garyfritz]

Hi Bob - garyfritz actually came up with a solution to the weekly open histogram issue - which works with any timeframe criminal (GMT or otherwise) -

Unfortunately I don't see any similar fix for the weekly/monthly pivot indicators. They don't have the "look for Sunday candle to mark start of week" error that the WOH indicators had. They just get the previous week/month candle using iShift, then pull out the H/L/C with iHigh, iLow, iClose. I don't see any fix there.

I'm hardly here at all this month and haven't had any time to look at this, but I'm not sure I understand what's causing the pivot differences. I suspect it's caused by crims that close at times other than 5pm NY time? That would cause different daily / weekly / monthly candles, especially the Close value, which would produce different pivot calculations. (Are there really crims that close at other times?? The global markets should be closing at 5pm NY Friday, so I don't know why individual crims would close at a different time.

If that's it, it's fixable to produce the same pivot on any crim. You just have to look at H1 candles (to calculate the daily H/L/C) and make sure you use the same candles for any crim with any close time.

If someone could explain the exact crim behavior that causes the problem, maybe (in my Copious Free Time (TM)) I could look at building a crim-agnostic pivot indicator.

Or maybe it doesn't really matter. As someone (Spot?) said, there are a zillion different pivot formulas. They can't all be right, or at least any more right than almost any other. Maybe how you trade around the pivot is more important than where the pivot is.

[spotdespot]

They just get the previous week/month candle using iShift, then pull out the H/L/C with iHigh, iLow, iClose. I don't see any fix there.

Yes - I thought the same - it seems the iShift/iClose brings back the Sunday close not the Friday close for some reason with GMT brokers.

Or maybe it doesn't really matter. As someone (Spot?) said, there are a zillion different pivot formulas. They can't all be right, or at least any more right than almost any other. Maybe how you trade around the pivot is more important than where the pivot is.

Definitely true and I guess what Bob/Steve have been saying (and me internally too tbh) but it is kind of niggling me re. the order of the pivots when the difference is so large.....but I had intended to drop it - just thought I'd reply!

Cheers,
Dave.

[SWG123]

Or maybe it doesn't really matter. As someone (Spot?) said, there are a zillion different pivot formulas. They can't all be right, or at least any more right than almost any other. Maybe how you trade around the pivot is more important than where the pivot is.

Or round numbers; or daily/weekly open; or Fib retracements (O.382, 0.5, 0.618, 0.7xx, etc, etc ...).

Oh damn, I forgot Murrey math levels, they work too! Well, sometimes. And Gann ... Elliott ... no, now I'm losing the will to live.