The Captains Chest - Naked Trading & Other Stuff

[Pedigree]

.....my broker can only offer me dummy volume figures, based on his own business volume.
I just hold the view that there is no real assessable volume available for Forex ...

I am not hearing this for the first time, and I am aware that volume data varies from broker to broker as does price itself. What I am not certain of is that this is reason enough to ignore it. Perhaps Jemook will be able to shed a bit more light on this for everyone.

And volume is a part and parcel of what CJ has taught in this thread. Even his very last chart here

http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... 320#p71320

took volume into consideration.

Could it be that you have omitted to fully appreciate the offerings of the last few pages which, to my mind, have been well more than just about volume? They have included not just HOW and WHY the MMs do what they do but also WHEN you can expect them to do it. I think this knowledge can only help anyone whose focus is primarily on price action.

[Ingot54]

I am not hearing this for the first time, and I am aware that volume data varies from broker to broker as does price itself. What I am not certain of is that this is reason enough to ignore it.

And volume is a part and parcel of what CJ has taught in this thread. Even his very last chart here

http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... 320#p71320

took volume into consideration.

Could it be that you have omitted to fully appreciate the offerings of the last few pages which, to my mind, have been well more than just about volume? They have included not just HOW and WHY the MMs do what they do but also WHEN you can expect them to do it. I think this knowledge can only help anyone whose focus is primarily on price action.

Quite possibly.

I encourage you to continue. This is the first time I have seen such a focus on (the study of) volume, and I look forward to learning something. Your hardworking contributions, and those of Banteka, have clearly been helpful to others Pedi ... and are in keeping with the spirit and intent of learning to track the fox and defeat it.

For the moment, I have to remain resolute in my own course - it is far too early for me to be adding another dimension to my trading.

While I personally, do not trust the rubbery volume figures put out by Empty4 brokers as dependable enough to base a decision upon, I appreciate that other traders do trust broker's volume - at least enough to put their money on it.

I can only read and learn ... but I am not yet ready for this leap of faith.

[kwanann]

I think of it along the lines of a game, when you are starting out, you have restricted weapons and limited capabilities, as you level up, you add on to your arsenal and have better upgrades.

Eg. Level 1: m and w
Level 2: 3 pushes
Level 3: volume

I won't say volume is not important, but it would be good to slowly level up rather thanjumpingnfull in. But each of us is different so choose what works for you.

Volume Is tricky because every lp shows different amounts, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored.. But it would be good to master the basics before adding another dimension into the mix

[banteka]

Well, I have to say that my intentions are not to divert the focus of this thread. I know that here we are talking about Naked Trading and any indicator on the charts may cause someone bothers.
But I think that volume is not an indicator as other are. Volume is more a signal, a clue, a footprint pointing to the FOX. Making a compare, the volume are the pheromones of the fox. Or if you prefer, the noise that the fox makes among the shrubbery, or even its howl.
We need an indicator in order to reveal where volume is. But this thing does not detract the essence of Naked Trading. Do you think that the NEWS indicator detracts it?.
Ivan, I respect your point of view, of course but wouldn't you use a knife if you were living NAKED in the forest?
Regards

[mjws00]

So far I've always understood CJ's use of volume. It is fairly traditional on the charts I have seen. By that, I mean analysis such as we've used trading stocks and futures forever. i.e volume dropping while price is rising means exhaustion, etc. Frankly if he is prepared to use it as additional valid information, I trust that judgement and its success enough to consider it.

Banteka is running with some ideas traderathome (TAH) has put forth on the sonic thread. His view of MM's is very similar to CJ's. But his (TAH) trading style is essentially reversion to mean. That is dozens of trades against the current price direction, with the hope that it will spring back above your average price. The "run for profits" idea and "position building" comes from there. TAH posts trades in real time, and has very legit wins, imho. But it is NOTHING like the precision and execution taught by CJ. You won't see that anywhere.

I think there were problems with the last volume discussion. Partially due to language and simplification. I also see significant challenges in strongly trending markets that persist. So the "trade counter" the big volume bars is problematic for me and where reversion to mean trading breaks. On the other hand a study of volume bars being at the tops or bottoms of multiple swings is interesting as a potential clue as to whether the fox is getting long or short.

There is potential for one more piece of the puzzle to hunt with. But, there is still some nuance and clarity missing. At least for me. I'm always willing to learn.

Banteka, feel free to correct me if my interpretation is off. I've read your posts and TAH's both there (FF) and here, and respect your feel for volume and price.

Mike

[Ozstyle]

I am not hearing this for the first time, and I am aware that volume data varies from broker to broker as does price itself. What I am not certain of is that this is reason enough to ignore it.

And volume is a part and parcel of what CJ has taught in this thread. Even his very last chart here

http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... 320#p71320

took volume into consideration.

Could it be that you have omitted to fully appreciate the offerings of the last few pages which, to my mind, have been well more than just about volume? They have included not just HOW and WHY the MMs do what they do but also WHEN you can expect them to do it. I think this knowledge can only help anyone whose focus is primarily on price action.

Quite possibly.

I encourage you to continue. This is the first time I have seen such a focus on (the study of) volume, and I look forward to learning something. Your hardworking contributions, and those of Banteka, have clearly been helpful to others Pedi ... and are in keeping with the spirit and intent of learning to track the fox and defeat it.

For the moment, I have to remain resolute in my own course - it is far too early for me to be adding another dimension to my trading.

While I personally, do not trust the rubbery volume figures put out by Empty4 brokers as dependable enough to base a decision upon, I appreciate that other traders do trust broker's volume - at least enough to put their money on it.

I can only read and learn ... but I am not yet ready for this leap of faith.

I don't use volume myself but it is my understanding that although the actual volume in terms of contracts traded is not correct (as it is not traded on a central exchange) the "volume pattern" across the large brokers is reasonably accurate.

[FlyHighDrifter]

I suppose with Volume analysis being the current rage here, purists like me are being sidelined from this thread.

I encourage you all to go for it, but I can't get interested in it - I just see it as a distraction, because my broker can only offer me dummy volume figures, based on his own business volume.

I just hold the view that there is no real assessable volume available for Forex ... at least at the retail level where I operate, so I will leave you all to it.

I'm doing fine with the CJ strategy as taught, and to see charts filling up with all these indicators and analysis, makes me wonder what Naked Trading really is. I am certain you guys are deriving a benefit from using Volume, or else you wouldn't be using it. But I just can't warm to it, and I want to learn Naked Trading as it was presented in the first 374 pages of the thread.

Maybe when I reach the level of trading evolution you guys are at, I will feel the need to join in here, but today ... hmmm ...

Looking for CJ.JPG

I notice in the above group, we have the whole flock looking in one direction, except for 3 black sheep doing their own thing. Of course, they are facing the same way as the other animal in the picture

Moral: (only applies to black sheep like myself): Don't always follow the herd

I agree.

CJ's last post is about a correct BARF setup thats why volume is highlighted.

I'm not saying volume shouldn't or can't be used, and I appreciate the volume contributions and enjoy reading them but it is not for me at this time. I bet there are a lot of folk out there still trying to learn the Naked Trading basics, it is a long exciting journey and I think the only way to start learning it is purely naked and only concentrating on the candles.

PVA is such a large subject that it could stand to have its own thred. Some of you have made some excellent volume related posts and not only would it keep this thred with less clothes on But it would also be handy to have volume related info all in one place?

Just my 10c...

Cheers all

Fly

[pips400]

Personally I have found volume enignmatic but I believe it is relevant to price action because it is real time data that tells us information about what is happening unlike any other element can, (candlesticks, s/r etc don't give anything about volume), albeit the tick data is subject to the broker's feed. The discussion has led me to start reading more on this subject and presently I am reading Mastering the Markets by Tom Williams. If the fox is on the move he's going to leave a trail, this includes volume. Think about it, if there is a large rise in volume but price is not going anywhere, what do you think is happening? Tradtionally we are told it means bulls and bears are fighting it out but there is no winner - but now we're aware of the fox, perhaps there's a different interpretation, what if such places are the perfect hunting ground for the fox drawing bulls and bears together, and where he can offload his position in the crossfire without being spotted - or so he thinks!

Bottom line: You can trade just RRT (M/W) at significant levels and make huge profits and never need anything else. You can achieve much at basecamp, but if you climb the summit you'll need proficiency in the equipment available.

[banteka]

So far I've always understood CJ's use of volume. It is fairly traditional on the charts I have seen. By that, I mean analysis such as we've used trading stocks and futures forever. i.e volume dropping while price is rising means exhaustion, etc. Frankly if he is prepared to use it as additional valid information, I trust that judgement and its success enough to consider it.

Banteka is running with some ideas traderathome (TAH) has put forth on the sonic thread. His view of MM's is very similar to CJ's. But his (TAH) trading style is essentially reversion to mean. That is dozens of trades against the current price direction, with the hope that it will spring back above your average price. The "run for profits" idea and "position building" comes from there. TAH posts trades in real time, and has very legit wins, imho. But it is NOTHING like the precision and execution taught by CJ. You won't see that anywhere.

I think there were problems with the last volume discussion. Partially due to language and simplification. I also see significant challenges in strongly trending markets that persist. So the "trade counter" the big volume bars is problematic for me and where reversion to mean trading breaks. On the other hand a study of volume bars being at the tops or bottoms of multiple swings is interesting as a potential clue as to whether the fox is getting long or short.

There is potential for one more piece of the puzzle to hunt with. But, there is still some nuance and clarity missing. At least for me. I'm always willing to learn.

Banteka, feel free to correct me if my interpretation is off. I've read your posts and TAH's both there (FF) and here, and respect your feel for volume and price.

Mike

Nothing to correct. Your are right. TAH's trading style is very risky and sometimes suicide. However, the volume TOOLS are the best thing you can extract from that thread. Nothing more.
PVSRA is only a part of the puzzle. That's the reason why I am here and not there anymore. I took what I was interested of and then kept on in my way looking for something that fills a very big void. Luckily I found this thread and I stayed.
There's a big difference in taking 20 trades with 0.01 lots each (as TAH does) than taking only one with 2 lots. YOU CAN NOT TRADE BASED ONLY IN VOLUME. RIght?. I ONLY want to trade two or three times a week. I look for MONEY not for PIPS.
My profitability has only growth when I started using NAKED TRADING. And volume has helped me to get it.
Now I take trades without fear and knowing what's going to happen. My videos are a proof of this.
In a future I will leave the volume indications but now I need them because I want to know where the FOX is. Tomorrow, when I have more experience, the volume will be only a remember.
Can you trade profitable without volume? Of course. Can you trade profitable without NEWS? Sure.
And could the FOX surprise to you without NEWS and VOLUME indications...?

[Ingot54]

Ivan, I respect your point of view, of course but wouldn't you use a knife if you were living NAKED in the forest?

First of all, Banteka, this thread is so much richer for your knowledge and generous sharing. I for one, am truly glad you have taken the effort to share these things with us.

In time, I might come to appreciate the role of volume in my forex trading - I used to use it a lot when trading equities.

And yes - for sure, if I were living naked in the forest, I would use anything available.

Right now, I am hiking along well-worn paths, and avoiding the depths of the forest. I am happy travelling light, with little more than the basics. With experience, I will be looking to be better equipped for deep woods hiking