My philosophy of Trading

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fxpoison
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My philosophy of Trading

Post by fxpoison »

Hi Bob, all

As per Anton Kreil's words (thanks for the video James!) we all started as "(fx) retail stupid traders"!!! Why? because historically, as he states in another video, "fx has lower (needed) volatility than stocks" and the hugely leveraged fx accounts are nothing but "money destruction instruments (buffet on futures)".

All brokers were not created equal, but for well over 90% of Empty4 ones... I think this ad is self explanatory :twisted:
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astral77
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My philosophy of Trading

Post by astral77 »

Hi BOB

As always I agree with you. This agreement is not because I am a disciple but because it makes sense. Our fellow trader in FF has been watching "Anton Kriel`s" videos which we were discussing previously. He mentions the 90/90/90 concept to show how badly a retail trader fares in the markets and he says it in relation with all instruments (i.e. forex, cfds, spreadbetting, options, etc) and not just forex.

I know quite a few retail traders who have not blown their their account for the last four to five years. Why we have not blown our accounts? Because, in our own small way we are trying to emulate the professionals. If you go and read most of the reviews of forexpeacearmy, 90% of them are identical. They moan and groan about how the broker is manipulating the price spikes leading in their trade hitting the stop loss and or margin call and after that the price reversed and went the way the trader had intended!!! We all have done very stupid things at the beginning of our trading journey. As for me I opened an account with $2500 and started trading full lots. After six weeks I had $300 left at which point I closed the account. Now days I would not even dream of trading full lots unless I have a balance of at least $100K.

So many people do not understand leverage and its benefits and dangers. Professional forex traders do not use more than 5:1 margin. Retail forex brokers offer from 50:1(in the USA) to 500:1 (in some offshore countries). Supposing we want to use maximum of margin 5:1 (like the pros), then we would need to trade 10 cents for every $1200 account balance with a maximum of 5 trades and a floating dd of $200. Double that if you wish to have maximum 10 trades and so on. The other point Anton Kriel makes regarding professional traders is the fact that they hedge their trades. How this is done is by having a number of different trades and just risking 2% of the total capital per trade.

I have been reading almost everything you have written in the last 5 years and your methods and systems have evolved in a way which emulates the professionals. This is quite remarkable since as far as I know you have never ever set out to copy the professionals, however, the natural logical progress has steered you in that direction. In FF we had a lot of idiots who tried to wreck and spoil some threads without even trying to contribute by constructive arguments and disagreements. Here they are quickly dealt with in "HOPWOOD" fashion, leaving only people who are genuine traders wishing to teach, learn and exchange ideas. We have members from all walks of life and all ages, they are all intelligent, respectful and open to ideas.

This post has become much larger than intended please feel free to edit it if you wish.

Kind regards
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nanningbob
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Post by nanningbob »

Good thoughts. Here is a post at FF from someone I dont even know. Yet similar sentiments.

I think that DailyFx/FXCM actually studied the habits of traders, but only limited it to traders between $1,000 and $10,000. http://www.dailyfx.com/forex/educati...rade-Size.html

In a nutshell, their stats suggest that there is an inverse relationship between leverage and profitability. Traders with larger equity balances tend to utilize less leverage; traders with smaller balances, more, and that this fact -- inability to properly manage the exposure of their equity -- leads to smaller traders' lack of profitability.

But it is now common knowledge that, for the vast majority of brokers (and perhaps all of them), less than 50% of their forex trading retail customers are profitable. On average, across all brokers, studies of retail traders show that they are abysmally unsuccessful, with only an average of 35% for all brokers in the study showing profitability: "During the [FY 2013 third quarter], brokers reported that 35% of US retail forex traders made money, with 65% experiencing losses." http://forexmagnates.com/exclusive-q....tA7dGlDB.dpuf That's kind of a "wow" to me ... .

For some reason, my broker (FXCM) has the most unsuccessful retail clients, with more than 72% showing unprofitability, which to me is somewhat odd since they seem to push sensible risk management guidelines over and over and over to folks.

All that being said, it also appears that the most successful traders are extremely profitable. http://fxtrade.oanda.com/analysis/to...ers-statistics For example, of Oanda's Top 100 traders, 89% of the Top 100 trading EUR/USD (yes, 89%) made profitable trades within the past 24 hours; 92% trading AUD/USD were profitable in this time period were profitable, ... and the list goes on. (Naturally I know that win rate isn't everything, but this is Oanda's Top 100, and I can only assume that every single last one of them is profitable.)

Unfortunately, I don't think any of these studies break down the customer base (with the exception of DailyFx's $1,000-$10,000 study) by account size, which would be informative, but if DailyFx's study is any indication, any breakdown is likely to show that smaller account holders are substantially more likely to fail than large ones and that is probably because these folks are trying to go from $1,000 to $1,000,000 in a year and simply have no desire to attempt to limit their market exposure to 1x equity per trade and 10 x equity exposure (or some other sensible limit) for all open positions because they will not "get rich quick" that way.

The likelihood that such traders are "bending the curve" is high; there is simply no way that a highly overleveraged trader can survive multiple trading mistakes without blowing up their account.

Although these studies do not give me boundless optimism that I will become a millionaire by the time I retire (more than a decade to go ... ugh), I do have realistic expectations that my forex trading will be profitable since I do adhere (somewhat religiously) to the 1 x equity per position/10 x equity for all positions rules-of-thumb which has allowed me to weather my fair share of F-up's without putting a large dent in my equity (and spared me a heart attack or two, no doubt).

As a parting thought, I am unsure of why folks (not naming names) would still have skin in this "game" if they were not successful at it, didn't think they could ever be, and don't think it is possible for anyone to be. They're like a quadraplegic who tries to swim the English channel, utlimately giving up and declaring: "Can't be done. Not humanly possible."

Well, maybe not for you.
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astral77
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My philosophy of Trading

Post by astral77 »

Thanks for the very informative post. However, the fact that the smaller account sizes tend to lose more makes perfect sense. Because, as novices we started with smaller accounts and as our confidence and experience grew , so did our account balance. In a previous post you mentioned that as your account size has increased you have become more conservative in your trading. Again this is very natural and applies to everyone. Because before if we lost a trader or two it was only pocket change but when you are risking larger amounts you are no longer talking pocket change. Earlier in my trading journey almost every time I was starting the Empty4 I had to trade, however, now days I look for reasons not to take the trades. In short IMHO it is experience and education which greatly contributes to profitability or lack of!!! As for making $1million in 7 years, I think if your account is over $10k at present you can do it providing you do not take out your profits. You are the only person in our circle who can do it and maybe you should give it a go to give us encouragement and also to substantially boost your pension. :cheer:

This short article in dilyfx shows the use of leverage and profitability. http://www.dailyfx.com/forex/education/ ... -Size.html

Kind regards
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Gertje
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Post by Gertje »

astral77 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:39 am wrote:As for making $1million in 7 years, I think if your account is over $10k at present you can do it providing you do not take out your profits.
It takes 5,6% - 5,7% monthly to make that happen, should be feasable.
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Pedigree
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Post by Pedigree »

nanningbob » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:52 am wrote:Good thoughts. Here is a post at FF from someone I dont even know. Yet similar sentiments.....

In a nutshell, their stats suggest that there is an inverse relationship between leverage and profitability. Traders with larger equity balances tend to utilize less leverage; traders with smaller balances, more, and that this fact -- inability to properly manage the exposure of their equity -- leads to smaller traders' lack of profitability......
Bob, regarding this issue of leverage, I've always felt that I am missing something and therefore need some educating......until a while ago when a penny dropped.

I've heard it said over and over again that the so-called “big boys” only use low leverage; 10:1, 50:1 - something like that. I've also heard a handful of traders I would like to believe are smarter than me saying the same thing. But I have never been able to understand it......until a while ago when a penny dropped!

This is because the concept, every time it is muted, it is presented as a trading safe-practice of some sort. In other words, the message it is meant to get across is that "It is better to fail small, never mind the possibility of succeeding big". Hmmmm!!!

OK, let us take a wet-behind-the-ear trader such as I was a couple of years back. I opened my first trading account and got the broker's default leverage of 200:1. Mind you, I was not even aware at the time that a higher leverage was available and that all I needed to do was ask for it! Neither did I realize fully what a higher leverage would have meant for my trading. I blew this account several times over within the first year, and I distinctly recall that on several occasions, my margin calls came just shortly before the market turned in my favour! If I had been using 500:1 leverage which was available at the time, I would not have been margin-called as often as was the case. When I think back to it now, I stop short of kicking myself, and instead, just smile quietly with a shake of the head!

So we see that in the case of a trader who doesn't quite know what he is doing yet, he stands a better chance of surviving the higher the leverage he uses.

Now let us consider the case of my friend. He has not lost a single trade in the last nine months. In that period, his DD has not risen above 20%. As for his profitability, it is best that we skip the subject because it is bound to cause an uproar and, in any case, few will believe it. And guess what, my friend uses 500:1 leverage. And I find it very difficult to push this low-leverage concept with him because I can see clearly that it will be nothing but an absolute waste of his time.

Here then is the other case of a trader who seems to be doing well enough on average, and he too is doing it happily on the maximum leverage available to him. So, what exactly are the “big-boys” doing trading low leverage? Are they a little stupid or what? Well, no, they are not stupid; but neither are they subscribing to the regime of "It is better to fail small". And this is the penny that dropped for me lately:

The big boys trade low leverage, not because it is safer to do so but because, with the large sums they deal in, THAT IS ALL THEY CAN GET. Funds are not unlimited to a broker, and leverage means funds. If I walked into my broker’s office and slapped a cheque for a billion pounds on his desk for a 500:1 forex account, he’ll probably just laugh me out of there for one simple reason: he does not have the resources to leverage to that extent such a large sum. If, however, my cheque was for a measly £10,000, he is able to comfortably accommodate a 500:1 leverage. What I fail to understand is why, in those circumstances, I should decline the 500:1 and instead ask for 10:1!

Make no mistake about it. The primary reason we are in forex is for the leverage it provides. You must pardon me then if I cannot see the reason to waste an iota of it without a cogent reason. Now it may well be the case that I am still missing some very salient point in all of this. So I will be very grateful to whoever can shed more light on the subject and deliver me from my insanity!
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Gertje
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Post by Gertje »

My belief is that the leverage WE are talking about and the leverage THEY are talking about are 2 different things. We speak of account leverage, they speak of trading leverage.

I can have a 500:1 account and still trade 1:1 leverage.

For example;
OUR leverage: with an $10.000 account, I can trade 500 x $10.000 = $5.000.000 which is 50 full lots before the account maxes out. Margin needed is appr. $200 per full lot [$100.000/500].

THEIR leverage: same account with 500:1 and $10.000 but instead only open 0.1 lot maximum [$10.000]. This way I'm trading 1:1 on a 500:1 account and have to be really bad at trading to put myself into MC-territory.

Just my view....
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Pedigree
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Post by Pedigree »

I prefer to see leverage as distinct from position-sizing because there is a difference between WHAT you have and HOW you manage what you have. Leverage is what you have and are limited by. It is the limit above which you cannot rise. Position-sizing is how you manage what you are limited to by your leverage.

My view is that to deliberately use lower leverage than is available to you is to box yourself in and unnecessarily limit your options.

I have also not known hitherto that when "leverage" is spoken of with regards to the big boys anything else is meant besides what you and I understand the word to mean.
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nanningbob
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Post by nanningbob »

Pedigree » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:15 pm wrote:I prefer to see leverage as distinct from position-sizing because there is a difference between WHAT you have and HOW you manage what you have. Leverage is what you have and are limited by. It is the limit above which you cannot rise. Position-sizing is how you manage what you are limited to by your leverage.

My view is that to deliberately use lower leverage than is available to you is to box yourself in and unnecessarily limit your options.

I have also not known hitherto that when "leverage" is spoken of with regards to the big boys anything else is meant besides what you and I understand the word to mean.
You ask good questions and I will try to explain leverage in the easiest and simplest terms I can. Basically leverage has to deal with how much money you can borrow. For example If I have 50:1 leverage I can borrow 50 dollars for every dollar I put up. 400:1 is 400 hundred dollars to every 1 dollar I put up. Now if I have a 1000 dollar account and maximize it out at 50:1 I can borrow 50,000 dollars and put it into play. If it is all in play and price goes against me to 49,000 my 1000 is gone and my account is blown. Now if you have 400:1 that allows you to trade 400,000 dollars and if it drops only to 399,000 dollars my money is gone and my account is blown. The difference is I have a lot more lots into play which means price can move and I can lose my 1000 more quickly. If I have 1.00 lot I can withstand a 1000 pip move before my money is gone. However if I push that to 10.00 then its gone after 100 pips and 100 lots are gone in 10 pips.

What 400:1 allows you to do is to put into play 8 times more money. The caveat is you can have a lot more lots into play and if price goes against you it can disappear quite quickly, like a matter of minutes at times. In other words your 1000 dollars doesnt cover much in market moves it you are playing with 400,000 in trades as compared to 50K. `That is why it is so easy to blow an account with high leverage. Beginner traders simply put too many or too large lot sizes out there and they cant cover a move that goes against them. The question is are traders who play with millions of dollars willing to risk it on high leverage? The answer is no. They have learned not to play that game.

The second area of leverage is you are borrowing money. Borrowing money costs you in interest while you are borrowing the money. In Forex that is called a swap cost. Now if you trade in a currency that has a higher interest rate than the money you are using for example nzd/usd. The interest of the NZD is much higher than the USD so you actually make money on interest. This is referred to a carry trade. It was borrow money from Japan at .10 % and buy AUD or NZD which was paying out over 5% years ago. If you used enough money price action didnt mean a whole lot because you were making interest on the money in play. Any way, if you are at 25:1 you are paying interest on the 25 dollars for every 1 dollar you put into play. If you are at 400:1 then you can see you are paying interest on 16 times more money. So if you are a long term trader, holding onto trades for weeks and months at a time. Interest on this money could eat away at your profits quickly. Especially if you are trading in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.

I found this out the hard way several years ago when I opened an account with FXSol in England. I ran a bunch of trades long term and the swap costs of a high leverage account ate up all my profits. I never traded high leverage again after that. So long term traders find leverage a big negative to their profits.

The third area is beginners. I actually believe it is better for beginners to use high leverage accounts to learn on. The reason is they can trade but use just a small amount of money for tuition (learning experience). If I have 300 dollars and 400:1 leverage I can trade like I have over 100K. Now my 300 wont cover much of a move but I am learning without risking a lot of money. I will lose it but I wont be risking a lot of money to learn. Once you have blown some accounts you then begin to realize you are really doing something wrong and eventually over time you begin to understand how high leverage can cause you to lose money quickly.

For me I plan on doubling or tripling my account soon and dropping to 10:1 or 20:1 leverage. That way I wont get myself into a lot of trouble. I hope this answers the basics without writing a book about the subject.
I trade http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... =38&t=3964,
I talk about my philosophy of trading here.
http://www.stevehopwoodforex.com/phpBB3 ... =38&t=3627
"The key to converting something useful to others is simplicity. Complexity is the enemy to execution." Tony Robbins
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Pedigree
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Post by Pedigree »

nanningbob » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:51 pm wrote: Basically leverage has to deal with how much money you can borrow. For example If I have 50:1 leverage I can borrow 50 dollars for every dollar I put up. 400:1 is 400 hundred dollars to every 1 dollar I put up. Now if I have a 1000 dollar account and maximize it out at 50:1 I can borrow 50,000 dollars and put it into play. If it is all in play and price goes against me to 49,000 my 1000 is gone and my account is blown. Now if you have 400:1 that allows you to trade 400,000 dollars and if it drops only to 399,000 dollars my money is gone and my account is blown. The difference is I have a lot more lots into play which means price can move and I can lose my 1000 more quickly. If I have 1.00 lot I can withstand a 1000 pip move before my money is gone. However if I push that to 10.00 then its gone after 100 pips and 100 lots are gone in 10 pips.

What 400:1 allows you to do is to put into play 8 times more money. The caveat is you can have a lot more lots into play and if price goes against you it can disappear quite quickly, like a matter of minutes at times. In other words your 1000 dollars doesnt cover much in market moves it you are playing with 400,000 in trades as compared to 50K. `That is why it is so easy to blow an account with high leverage. Beginner traders simply put too many or too large lot sizes out there and they cant cover a move that goes against them. The question is are traders who play with millions of dollars willing to risk it on high leverage? The answer is no. They have learned not to play that game.

The second area of leverage is you are borrowing money. Borrowing money costs you in interest while you are borrowing the money. In Forex that is called a swap cost. Now if you trade in a currency that has a higher interest rate than the money you are using for example nzd/usd. The interest of the NZD is much higher than the USD so you actually make money on interest. This is referred to a carry trade. It was borrow money from Japan at .10 % and buy AUD or NZD which was paying out over 5% years ago. If you used enough money price action didnt mean a whole lot because you were making interest on the money in play. Any way, if you are at 25:1 you are paying interest on the 25 dollars for every 1 dollar you put into play. If you are at 400:1 then you can see you are paying interest on 16 times more money. So if you are a long term trader, holding onto trades for weeks and months at a time. Interest on this money could eat away at your profits quickly. Especially if you are trading in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.

I found this out the hard way several years ago when I opened an account with FXSol in England. I ran a bunch of trades long term and the swap costs of a high leverage account ate up all my profits. I never traded high leverage again after that. So long term traders find leverage a big negative to their profits.
Thanks a lot Bob for taking the time to explain. It is true that whether you use high or low leverage, the onus is still on you to size your position sensibly so as to avoid problems.

On the separate issue of leverage vis-a-vis swap costs, you will recall that on more than one occasion in the past when this came up for discussion (one of them verified by the master broker himself!!!), the conclusion was that leverage has nothing at all to do with swap. If you have two accounts one with 500:1 leverage and the other with 20:1 leverage, and you opened identical trades in each with same lot sizes, after any length of time has elapsed, the swap charges will be exactly the same for both accounts.
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